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Author Topic: Invasive species  (Read 127 times)

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Gobywan

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Invasive species
« on: November 24, 2017, 07:23:09 AM »

Hi! New member, I was wondering with all the invasive species, and the Asian carp seemed to be getting closer, it does not look good for the home team, any thoughts!
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Gobywan

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 05:53:11 AM »

Nothing? This guy chapman say we can control Asian carp with native predators OK let's do that! Lets do something are you gonna wait till they are smacking people around?  It's fish same as common carp put some predators in there! what's it gonna hurt?
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Gobywan

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2017, 09:17:11 AM »

OK This article says the Prairie Du Sac dam Wisconsin River 5 asian carp they said the Dam is tall enough to stop then but it has a fish ladder so fish can get over? Howes that work?
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Neebo

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 05:34:45 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Gobywan.  Sorry for the delay in response.  This site is pretty slow this time of year so until spring.  My thoughts are that it is really scary.  Smarter (hopefully) people than I have plans in place. There seem to be some places to control it but I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the great lakes in the next 10 years.  While there are certainly some predatory fish that could control them, they will also "control" all the other species and could wipe things out.  Fish ladders are in place to help fish move about the river systems.  Without it, there would be no salmon runs and fish would essentially live only in lakes and tributaries where there are none.  If you are interested in how they work, I would do a youtube or google search and watch them go up.  Pretty cool stuff.
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Gobywan

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 07:22:23 AM »

Sorry seen fish wiers, wanted to know why we have fish weirs on a Asian carp Dam? To help them cross? But the latest is Kevin Irons biologist says plenty of time and a guy in Canada  no worries I believe the Asian carp that we don't worry about is the ones we will!  More AC than we stared with but no worries? Native fish eat them restore native fish?
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alleymad

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 06:59:31 PM »

Weirs are different than ladders.  As Neebo said, ladders are a way for fish to make it around a dam so they can continue moving upstream i.e. salmon and steelhead that move out of the lakes and into the rivers to spawn.  Weirs, on the other hand are barriers designed to stop movement upstream.  Weirs are, I believe, specifically designed to take advantage of some aspect of the thing they are trying to stop.  Lamprey weirs are the ones I am most familiar with.

Initially, they tried to use electrical barriers, but it interfered with trout and salmon and was too costly to operate.  After some research, it was determined that a couple of things could be done to stop lampreys but not interfere with salmon and steelhead.  So, they introduced barrier dams with a metal lip on the top - lampreys can't jump over them, but salmon and trout can.  Also, pool type fish ladders were designed that created currents that were too strong for lampreys to swim against but still allowed salmon and trout to get through.

Also, by putting the lamprey barriers in place, it greatly reduced the length of rivers that needed to be chemically treated to control lamprey spawning, making the chemical control process more cost-effective.

My take -

1) These fish will get here.  Just like lampreys, zebra mussels, gobies, etc.
2) No single method will either prevent that from happening nor control it once it does
3) There will most certainly be negative consequences when they get in the Great Lakes, and there will also likely be unforeseen positive consequences.  Until those consequences materialize, it adds nothing to the conversation to dramatize the possible effects with hyperbole.  We can guess all we want, but we cannot know.  Hyperbole delegitimizes concern as a good portion of the folks receiving the hyperbole will immediately discredit it and move to the exact opposite pole, thereby producing a result that is the polar opposite of what was intended.  We can and should be concerned, but, as they say, "reports about my death are greatly exaggerated."

What we should do -

1) Continue to raise awareness, not by over-reaching, but by raising the issue and the uncertainty around the consequences in a realistic manner that is fact-based as opposed to specualtive
2) Continue to press for education about invasive species in general
3) Press for greater enforcement of measures already in place to reduce the threat of introducing invasive species
4) Continue to make a concerted effort to not only study what will likely happen but also how to MITIGATE it once it does, as opposed to focusing on "all or nothing" and "the sky is falling we are all doomed" positions

Just my thoughts.
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Gobywan

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 07:48:15 AM »

well with all due respect there is nothing positive with Asian carp, we should be restocking our native fish to eat these things. Any fish ladder that's attached to a dam that has asian carp? USGS says a Healthy Native Fish population no fish can survive so we make it hard for them to survive, predators lots of predators. If they have 95% asian carp we don't have enough predators!
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alleymad

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 11:08:39 AM »

well with all due respect there is nothing positive with Asian carp, we should be restocking our native fish to eat these things. Any fish ladder that's attached to a dam that has asian carp? USGS says a Healthy Native Fish population no fish can survive so we make it hard for them to survive, predators lots of predators. If they have 95% asian carp we don't have enough predators!

Maybe I am dense...

"We should be restocking our native fish to eat these things" - which of our native fish?  We stock millions of trout and walleye.  Smallmouth populations are booming.  Lots of places have lowered size limits on pike to control over-population.  Which native fish need to be stocked?

"Any fish ladder that's attached to a dam that has asian carp."  I don't understand what you are saying.  Please clarify so I can intelligently respond.

"USGS says a Healthy Native Fish population no fish can survive so we make it hard for them to survive, predators lots of predators."  Where does the USGS say this?  What predators are they talking about?  Since when is the USGS the authority on fish in Michigan or Wisconsin or anywhere?  Since when do I believe that a federal agency in a different state has my best interests at heart - answer is I don't.  Maybe I am cynical, but no Federal program or agency I am aware of has ever actually accomplished what it set out to do (with the exception, perhaps, of the IRS).  War on drugs?  War on poverty?  War on terror?  Health insurance?  Pretty sure I will need to live to be 100 to be eligible for Social Security...  The federal government cannot save us - local solutions are more effective and more efficient.  As much as I may distrust the State of Michigan as a governmental entity, they rank above the Feds...

"If they have 95% asian carp we don't have enough predators!"  Which "they" are you referring to?  What do "they" have to do with our predators?
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Neebo

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 12:14:44 PM »

I am with allymad on this.  I don't really understand what you are getting at with some of this.  I guess I need to know what predatory fish you would like to increase and where.  Some of these fish simply cannot exist in large quantities in certain bodies of water, or at all.  IE the grand river will never be a brook trout habitat.  Also, introduction of "lots of predators" will destroy many other species just as fast as introducing asian carp.  You put 1 breeding pair of pike into a small panfish pond and see how long it lasts.
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Gobywan

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 07:31:01 AM »

OK see if I can explain. "They" would be the Illinois DNR USGS the people who are living with the Asian Carp etc....

 Now I have a problem with posting but I can give you titles, and yes I understand a pike can clean out a pond but we are not talking about a pond! 
 Diet analysis of native predatory fish to investigate predation of juvenile Asian carp 2016,  Eocsystems Invasive species 2016, Variation in native micro-predator abundance explains recruitment of a mobile invasive fish the common carp in a naturally onstable environment 2016  Per Reveiewed!  Any common carp control methods apply same growth rate as Asian carp eggs juveniles at risk it's a fish predators.

 asian Carp can be controled Duane Chapman, Biologists begin searching Sturgeon bay for Asian carp evidence D. Chapman.

  Pretty much all native species eat asian carp eggs fry juveniles Perch walleye bluegills etc,,,, 
  The invasive species we have 183 at last count are not under control wash your boots and ballast doesn't work !

   The Biotic resistance of the ecosystem is (native predators/fish) gone replaced by invasive species. Check Biotic -resistance!

 Sorry I can't post I put it in and it gone ain't got a clue?
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Gobywan

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 07:41:57 AM »

They (Govt) want to plug the river cheaper $5.9 million versus $270 million Brandon road. they said they jusy close some gate. Either one affects one spot leaving all the other areas wide open for the Asian Carp to spawn 34 states and counting.

  Restoring native wont costs much and it is the solution!
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Neebo

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 10:17:57 AM »

So you want to increase stocking of all native fish species to control asian carp eggs?  The solution is just to continue stocking?  Am I reading this right?  I guess the only isue I have with that is that increasing these numbers now will only stunt fish size.  There are no eggs in the great lakes.  This would be a good measure to take but only after the fact.  Otherwise it's like shoveling before snowfall.
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Gobywan

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2017, 06:33:06 AM »

First of all we are not in any danger of having too many Native Fish far from it, creel limits can be adjusted for to many but then again way too far away from too many!  The catch limits in Michigan 35/50 per dayPerch are way to high Wisconsin 15 Perch Walleye we should be the same. 35/50 get a decent spawn gone in one year. Gobys spiny fleas red shrimp etc .... Perch Walleye eat them plenty of food we can stock Perch and Walleye and bring them back where they belong, I know for a fact the walleye pond in Muskegon they let what was left in the bottom the drain the pond thing was all the walleyes we got.

 Asian Carp currently can spawn anywhere no restrictions except electric barriers that only work if they get in it! Brandon Road lock proposed one spot only works IF they get in it.

 Restore the Native Fish population changes the conditions that the AC have to deal with, Predators they will eat eggs and fry and juveniles currently they have no restrictions the only weakness is they don't guard there eggs and fry we can exploit that weakness.

  We don't wait until after the fact we have gobys spiney fleas etc..... to get ready it inoly wors if the predators are in place. The Perch alone eat everything including zebra/quagga mussels there just need more of them a lot more!

  They (govt) can pursue whatever we just want to restore/stock the Native Fish that we don't have but we could have! What do you got to lose? More native fish instead on Asian carp? The experts (USGS) said if the plan does not include taking out juvenile Asian carp it wont work!  Native predators eat eggs fry etc......
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Neebo

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 12:33:10 PM »

I feel like you are just here to put words in people's mouths and argue.  I'm done.
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Gobywan

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Re: Invasive species
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 07:28:42 AM »

All these things are happening right now? And we/they are doing nothing? We should be doing something biologically the experts say tp restore native fish OK lets do that!
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